tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post2405798980389758272..comments2023-11-05T23:07:01.842+11:00Comments on Grog's Gamut: The ETS gets put in the pre-election sin binGreg Jerichohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04956402439870441083noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-58074216073641207242010-04-28T17:54:29.788+10:002010-04-28T17:54:29.788+10:00If the word around our office is anything to go by...If the word around our office is anything to go by, the Greens might be the ones to receive a big backlash at the election. In an office of 28 people - not a real poll of course - but 17 are of the opinion that the Greens are as much to blame for not having passed the climate legislation. In my book that's a large number here so it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Also interesting were the comments condemning Bob Brown and Christine Milne for their perceived attacks on the Government over the insulation issue, which were regarded as hitting below the belt.<br />Interesting times coming up.ascauntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-31586474251484626432010-04-28T16:17:26.394+10:002010-04-28T16:17:26.394+10:00I used to second preference the Greens. This time ...I used to second preference the Greens. This time I'll put the libs in front of them. They are a wasted voteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-41982622789219617242010-04-28T14:42:39.332+10:002010-04-28T14:42:39.332+10:00It seems like Kevin Rudd did the right thing about...It seems like Kevin Rudd did the right thing about the Debates commission. It seemed like a bad lot, I mean, one person from Labor, one Liberal, and a member of the press gallery. Which means the press will control it, and they certainly haven't been doing the government any favors with their endless quoting of the liberal's party line. If I was Rudd, I would do everything possible to shaft them.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-82694084997552476292010-04-28T13:49:47.718+10:002010-04-28T13:49:47.718+10:00Wow, Agnes, you didn't read a word I said, did...Wow, Agnes, you didn't read a word I said, did you?<br /><br />That comment was pure ignorance and bias, not informed debate.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00737375602391253767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-8408512370844058612010-04-28T13:42:42.127+10:002010-04-28T13:42:42.127+10:00Tim,
Let's get down to the nitty gritty.
An...Tim,<br /><br />Let's get down to the nitty gritty. <br /><br />Anyone who genuinely wants action on climate change has no option but to vote Labor in this year's election. The Greens can't deliver and Tony Abbott's lot won't.<br /><br />Unfortunately the number of voters wanting action is steadily declining, now around 48% I think. If this election were to be fought on climate change, with Tony Abbott and Barnaby Joyce stumping the country with their dishonest "Great big new tax on everything" mantra, the support is likely to plummet even further, making it even more difficult for any Government to act. <br /><br />The Greens need to do a bit of tactical thinking if they are serious about reducing carbon emissions. They need to tone down their attacks on Labor because Labor is their best hope of getting genuine action on climate change. The Rudd/Wong ETS is far from perfect, and the ammended version is less perfect than the original - which, I remind you, the Greens voted down although it would have passed with their votes added to those of Senators Boyce and Troeth. <br /><br />No legislation is immutable so once we had legislation in place there was every prospect that it would become gradually more effective. But now , thanks to Bob Brown's pig-headed purity, we have no base on which to build.Agnes Macknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-37609956998168621612010-04-28T12:55:22.527+10:002010-04-28T12:55:22.527+10:00Can you imagine the confected outrage from the Coa...Can you imagine the confected outrage from the Coalition and the media if one of the members of the Rudd Government called Tony Abbott a 'Creep'?HillbillySkeleton@gmail.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-44754470653562177292010-04-28T10:49:52.346+10:002010-04-28T10:49:52.346+10:00No, Sam, the Greens voted against a scheme which, ...No, Sam, the Greens voted against a scheme which, according to the Rudd-leaning Grattan Institute would have actively held back emissions reductions. Do read their report.<br /><br />The scheme had NOTHING to do with heading towards carbon neutrality, Sam. What an extraordinary thing to say. The govt has repeatedly said they have no intention to go to carbon neutrality - they don't think that is necessary or possible.<br /><br />You say: "In a cap and trade system, all that matters from an emissions perspective is the target." This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the policy because it forgets the access to offsets.<br /><br />Under this scheme, there was unlimited access to offsets from overseas such that the Treasury modelling assumed that effectively ALL emissions reductions would be achieved using imported permits from the date of implementation out to 2034.<br /><br />In an ideal world where all countries had carbon caps and all countries had strong accounting and verification processes for the production of permits, that would be fine. But you know as well as I do that we do not live in such a world.<br /><br />Where companies look overseas for cheap emissions permits, they owuld have happily bought whatever they could get access to at the cheapest price. And you know as well as I do that plenty of them would have been dodgy permits that account for absolutely no emissions reductions whatsoever - either they would be fraudulent as so many coming out of PNG and south east Asia are, or they would be questionable as to whether they amount to any _additional_ emissions reductions on BAU at all.<br /><br />Bear in mind that the government KNEW this. The Greens moved amendments to make sure that any overseas permits were gold standard accredited so we could be confident that the emissions reductions they represented were real. The government steadfastly refused to accept even that amendment.<br /><br />This scheme was designed to allow business as usual to continue in Australia for 20 years, with no guarantee that it would represent any emissions reductions at home or globally.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00737375602391253767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-53531316764002480512010-04-28T00:55:30.125+10:002010-04-28T00:55:30.125+10:00But Tim,
When it came to the crunch the Greens vo...But Tim, <br />When it came to the crunch the Greens voted down a scheme that would have passed the senate and would have reduced emissions. A scheme that would have set us on the path towards a carbon neutral economy. Now that scheme has been delayed by 2 years and its future is still very uncertain. In a cap and trade system, all that matters from an emissions perspective is the target. Free permits count for little when the price is set by market mechanism anyway. The only thing free permits affect is who shoulders the load. Now you can argue all you want about who should carry the burden, that the coal industry should be the first to pay etc, but mother nature doesn't know the difference and doesn't care, so long as the emissions come down.Sam Tanseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-7254400789576039932010-04-27T22:49:49.447+10:002010-04-27T22:49:49.447+10:00Agnes Mack, please look at the facts. The Greens d...Agnes Mack, please look at the facts. The Greens did not insist on a perfect ETS. The Greens proposed a very strong one in detailed legislation, but made it very clear we would compromise on it to pass a scheme that was a step in the right direction. We wanted to talk about each one of our 22 amendments to the CPRS. The government refused to do so because it preferred to play politics.<br /><br />You folks who keep saying the Greens make the perfect the enemy of the good clearly have made no attempt whatsoever to look at our record in the Senate. Please take the time to do so and you may find yourselves somewhat wiser.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00737375602391253767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-88496137545196374112010-04-27T22:42:21.666+10:002010-04-27T22:42:21.666+10:00I don't have any confidence that the Greens wi...I don't have any confidence that the Greens will step up to the plate in the new senate any more than they have in this one (though in this one their votes are irrelevant so I suppose it didn't matter so much. I reckon they'll just carry on whinging (sp?) and whining and sacrificing the good on the altar of their idealised notion of the perfect.God I wish they'd grow up!<br /><br />Psstoff Old HackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-69384722008933269362010-04-27T22:37:21.229+10:002010-04-27T22:37:21.229+10:00Nick McKim gives the impression that he is a new b...Nick McKim gives the impression that he is a new breed of Green conscious of the need to distinguish between the ideal and the possible. <br /><br />If this impression is accurate we can only hope that McKim will contaminate the prized purity of Bob Brown's Canberra Greens and we'll see some sane environmental policy get through a Senate where they hold the balance of power. <br /><br />If Bob Brown insists only a perfect ETS will gain Greens support, things are looking grim for the Government and the environment. However much the pollsters tell us that voters want action on climate change, it is probable that in the privacy of the ballot box many will be muttering "as long as it doesn't hurt me too much". <br /><br />There is no reason to expect next term's Opposition to be any less bloody-minded than this one even if Abbott gets the boot. Labor would realise that if they give the Greens the ETS they want, the Government will certainly be chucked out in 2013. <br /><br />On the other hand, if the Greens "grow up", to use your expression, we might get a reasonable ETS which can be improved over time as the population realises it doesn't condemn them to a life of penury.<br /><br />Really enjoyed your post, Grog, as always.Agnes Macknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-4811410894149008252010-04-27T22:35:06.541+10:002010-04-27T22:35:06.541+10:00The problem with the thrust of this post, Grog, is...The problem with the thrust of this post, Grog, is that you completely and wilfully ignore the fact that the Greens have shown time and again a willingness to negotiate in a way that will pass legislation that is nowhere near the 'purity' you ridicule.<br /><br />The choice not to do so on the CPRS is because it is utterly unacceptable policy on many levels.<br /><br />Your jibe at Christine Milne (disclaimer - yes, I am her adviser) is done in the bliss of complete ignorance. You weren't in the room in meetings with Senators outside Labor and the Greens who told us they would support our carbon levy proposal.<br /><br />Laura Tingle, possibly the Canberra press gallery's most respected journalist, has made the point several times recently, that the government has done everything it can to keep the Greens irrelevant on climate change by refusing to talk to them. It's politically convenient for the ALP to brand the Greens as unable to do deals. Easier for them to attack on that basis than to do deals themselves.<br /><br />That's what's the problem here, not the question of whether the Greens are mature enough or politically savvy enough to deal with balance of power.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00737375602391253767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-83141298285073161662010-04-27T22:30:48.184+10:002010-04-27T22:30:48.184+10:00L - yes you're right, the Greens shouldn't...L - yes you're right, the Greens shouldn't say that, but neither should they act like they have the solution - "just bargain with us and all will be perfect". It's bull, and everyone knows it. <br /><br />To my mind the main problem is the Greens know their best chance of winning votes is by winning them off the ALP, thus it is not in their interests to help the ALP.<br /><br />So in that respect they are operating like a mature political party.<br /><br />(and you're right there are also a lot of other dumb statements said by other parties - put that one down to hyperbole on my part)<br /><br />Sam I agree the hardest thing with the ETS is getting it in place - I wrote a blog on it a while back. But I do also acknowledge that the current ETS had deep flaws.<br /><br />My hope is that post-eleciton the ALP will wokr with the Greens to come up with a better one - but (and it's a big BUT) the Greens have got to join the real political world and realise there are deep fears in the electorate about an ETS, and the media will do very little to calm them, thus any ETS they come up with will have to involve some 'bad' things, put in purely to make it palatable. <br /><br />I hope they can do that - I do think they can. <br /><br />Of course the big question as well will be whether Rudd thinks it is worth his political fortunes to negotiate with the Greens. <br /><br />It may also depend who is Lib leader post-election.Greg Jerichohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04956402439870441083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-55076654849827672132010-04-27T22:21:54.654+10:002010-04-27T22:21:54.654+10:00Hi Grog
What would we do without you, wonderful ...Hi Grog <br /><br />What would we do without you, wonderful piece again.<br /><br />I would love it if you were a journalist for Mr Murdoch.<br /><br />Love this sentence<br /><br />(Expect more of this. The Liberal Party hates Rudd, and without the calming influence of Howard (yes calming) expect the Libs to go feral this election campaign).<br /><br />They the Liberal Party do really hate Kevin Rudd, it is evident in every interview.<br /><br />How interesting this election is going to be, Tony Abbott has said today that he would be happy for this election to be fought on Climate Change, err really.<br /><br />Cheers LynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-73170955167437822872010-04-27T22:20:52.115+10:002010-04-27T22:20:52.115+10:00“Why does the Prime Minister prefer to have no pri...<i>“Why does the Prime Minister prefer to have no price on carbon at all than to negotiate in good faith with the Greens?<br /><br />This is quite possibly the most political ignorant thing you could say – and indicative that the Greens operate on a different political level to the ALP and the Liberal Party. </i><br /><br />I don't know Grog, if you take a sentence at random from any recent public statement from one of the two major parties, separate it from context and ignore the way it is intended to be perceived by its target audience, I reckon it'd sound at least as naive as this. And probably a lot stupider.<br /><br />It's not as if the Greens are going to start wearing signs saying ACTUALLY FORGET ABOUT NEGOTIATING WITH US BECAUSE OUR SENATE VOTES ARE AS USEFUL AS 5 PIMPLES FORMING A LIKENESS OF JESUS ON STEVE FIELDING'S ARSE. No, they're using any opportunity they have to draw attention to their preferred policy outcome of a carbon tax and point out to their supporters what their priorities will be when one day they do end up with the balance of power. <br /><br />C'mon, oppositions always do this kind of thing even when everyone knows there's absolutely no chance the government will negotiate with them, and nobody calls them naive. Hell, if they're Liberals Glenn Milne will get drunk and call them "tactically brilliant" or something. You don't think there's a <i>little</i> bit of a double standard here?Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-29204308427571662942010-04-27T22:14:07.937+10:002010-04-27T22:14:07.937+10:00The greens either completely misread/didn't un...The greens either completely misread/didn't understand/didn't care about the politics surrounding the ets. It doesn't take a political genius to see that the biggest hurdle to setting up an effective ETS was always getting ANY ETS off the ground. The politics surround tweaks to targets, free permits, compensation, etc will be far less acute once an ets is in operation. I've always voted Green but I've been massively disappointed by the dick headed way they have used their influence in the last 2 years. It's like they havn't yet realised that they wield any legislative power; simply content to be a party of idealists shouting from the gallery.Sam Tanseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-61209154924431749932010-04-27T22:07:37.079+10:002010-04-27T22:07:37.079+10:00It will be tough Aubrey. To be honest, I don't...It will be tough Aubrey. To be honest, I don't know if they will be able to do it.<br /><br />The Greens also have to face up to the reality that Brown ain't getting any younger. And as the Democrats found - leadership tensions can destroy small parties. <br /><br />I don't think the Greens can become the Aust verison of the LDP in Great Britain, but I do think they can become at least as important as the Dems were in the 90s.(You can decide for yourself if the Dems handled their power responsibly!)<br /><br />But will it last?Greg Jerichohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04956402439870441083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-90724246590188263852010-04-27T21:32:34.619+10:002010-04-27T21:32:34.619+10:00Nice post, Grog
I'm not looking forward to th...Nice post, Grog<br /><br />I'm not looking forward to the Greens having the balance of power as I don't believe they could make the transition you envisage (to genuine players). Bob Brown has spent his whole political career scrambling to occupy the high moral ground and I can't see him climbing down. Perhaps Milne could do it but with the memory of the Dem's demise so fresh, I doubt she could carry the Party.<br /><br />Being pragmatic ("doing deals") will genuinely limit their appeal to their base. I believe that the temptation to stand alone in order to maintain the line that the Big Parties are to blame will be too strong.Aubreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13170560315732171722noreply@blogger.com