tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post4661549732174911715..comments2023-11-05T23:07:01.842+11:00Comments on Grog's Gamut: On the QT: Feel the audacity of the Greens!Greg Jerichohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04956402439870441083noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-15822410914575195662011-07-20T12:09:39.665+10:002011-07-20T12:09:39.665+10:00"An estate tax affords a certain protection a..."An estate tax affords a certain protection against the development of a race of idle rich".<br /><br />What a bunch of extreme leftist twaddle. Except that the above quote comes from Winston Churchill, who supported an inheritance tax, as did most principled conservatives back then.<br /><br />This is the case with most Green policies. In reality, their proposals are in line with what both social democratic and conservative parties believed in more enlightened times. Its not so much that their policies are skewed to the left, but that the political rhetoric today is so far skewed to the right.<br /><br />As far as raising the rate of corporate tax and lowering the voting age, surely these are matters where people can reasonably disagree? Are they ideas that should summarily dismissed as dopey?<br /><br />In any event, shareholders in public companies will still receive franking credits for any company tax that has been paid on their dividends, and so will not really be any worse off. The only people for whom the rate of company tax actually matters are self-employed people (Peter Costello even admitted as much) - who semi-legitimately use their entity to pay less tax than they would be if income was attributed to them as individuals.Mystikielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09866071661926880131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-10738869357225612682011-07-10T08:35:33.826+10:002011-07-10T08:35:33.826+10:00As for that quip about Whyalla being wiped out... ...As for that quip about Whyalla being wiped out... I grew up there and it really is the arse end of the world; wiping it out would improve Australia no end and should be an objective of all three parties in Parliament....ex-Whyalla resident...noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-50363001742091276282011-07-08T07:21:23.537+10:002011-07-08T07:21:23.537+10:00It's actually a common misconception that you ...It's actually a common misconception that you can't enter into a contract if you're under 18. There are rules about when such a contract will be binding, but there's no blanket rule that says a minor can't contract (or consent to medical treatment, or do most other things necessary to run their own lives)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-5236719227596521502011-07-07T23:43:26.939+10:002011-07-07T23:43:26.939+10:00The mainstream media (especially the Murdoch press...The mainstream media (especially the Murdoch press) have taken a turn against the Greens since they realised that they were going to be in a position to have influence. As many have pointed out, however, 9 Senators do not a majority make. Influence only turns into power when the two major parties vote against each other. And, having 11% of the Senators with 13% of the vote doesn't read like having influence out of proportion to the electoral mandate.<br /><br />Further, it's par for the course for minor parties to have policies which are wish lists rather than practical programs - and it's a rational response. They know they'll only have a limited amount of influence, but they can't tell in advance exactly what they'll achieve, since it is a matter of negotiation with the major parties and dependent, above all, on the major parties' mutual antagonism. Therefore, they put up a wish list and see how much their elected politicians can achieve out of it. If they had a firmer grip on power (e.g. as part of a coalition government), they would need to start prioritising.<br /><br />That said, I believe that the Greens are utopian idealists, because they believe that capitalism can be made peaceful and just. On the other hand, the Libs have never pretended it can, while Labor gave up on its illusions in a Parliamentary road to Socialism decades ago. Nowadays, they just try to make capitalism a little less unjust than the Libs do.<br /><br />Finally, the reason <i>The Strine</i> is going so hard at Lee Rhiannon is pure and simple anti-communism. She used to be a Tankie* (a supporter of Moscow-line "Socialism" against independent, and generally more democratic, Leftist tendencies), but most of them threw in the towel when the Moscow Stalinists did. I assume that Senator Rhiannon abandoned her subjective Socialism at about the same time. She's certainly no Socialist of any description now.<br /><br />* <b>Tankie.</b> <i>n</i> A supporter of the belief that Socialism would come to power in Europe in the wake of the tanks of the Red Army.Ablokeimetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-49302570884163601772011-07-07T11:18:32.430+10:002011-07-07T11:18:32.430+10:00Since when has no disaster been a sign of good pol...<i>Since when has no disaster been a sign of good policy?</i><br /><br />Well, the thing to remember here is that the Greens getting the balance of power (assuming Labor & Liberals continue to squabble like children) is that it is not a matter of "policy" that brought this around. It's a matter of "democracy" that put them there. People voted for them and they got the representation they desired.<br /><br />That is a good thing and a sign of good democracy.B.Tolputtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-6823386105426621932011-07-07T10:09:32.576+10:002011-07-07T10:09:32.576+10:00While I have always voted Green since gaining citi...While I have always voted Green since gaining citizenship 4 years ago, I disagree with the dogmatic positions the Greens take on some issues (note dogmatic not dopey, because dopey should only apply to anything Barnaby says on air). Nuclear is one good example.<br /><br />And talking about dopey, how about ALP's citizenship assembly on climate change (most dopey ever policy), the real Julia election campaign (second most dopey ever election strategy). How about East Timor solution? How about Gillard's inconsistent, incoherent, hypocritical stance on gay marriage?hannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-64783069070136897092011-07-06T21:25:17.854+10:002011-07-06T21:25:17.854+10:00Greg notes sarcastically the Greens get the balanc...Greg notes sarcastically the Greens get the balance of power 'and apparently nothing much has changed'. Gillard says after the carbon tax 'Australians will realise the sky hasn't fallen in'. Since when has no disaster been a sign of good policy?James In Footscraynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-48373488706246002442011-07-06T12:06:54.244+10:002011-07-06T12:06:54.244+10:00Good article and it made me aware of something I h...Good article and it made me aware of something I had no idea of before (that Brown always nominates someone for Senate President). I didn't think much about him doing it this time, so the media explosion was already ridiculous in my mind, but now knowing that this was a usual thing... it's obvious the MSM are gunning for <i>something</i> to make the Greens look bad.<br /><br />I too am a Labor voter who likes the Greens. As far as Senate is concerned, I've been voting Green since I could actually vote as they can negotiate things back from the right-wing lean Parliament seems to have with the Coalition & Labor making up the "two party system". That said, it is hard to take some policies of theirs seriously and, should they start actually having control (rather than this MSM myth of it), I might move my vote.<br /><br />Take, for example the "vote @ 16" policy. You are not even legally allowed to enter a contract by yourself at this time. Whilst I understand the "no taxation without representation" angle, I can honestly say that I was not mature enough at that time to make weighty decisions. Niether were most of my school mates. You can't drive by yourself, you can't drink or smoke (not that I really wanted to do either), and you are only just able to sleep with someone your own age. I cannot justify (nor could I then) the idea of getting control of who governs us.B.Tolputtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-26731817669880478692011-07-06T10:43:28.288+10:002011-07-06T10:43:28.288+10:00You had me right up until "economic rationali...You had me right up until "economic rationalism". Wow what a success story that has been for the developing world. Free markets, globalisation, deregulation, eliminate the welfare state, yada yada yada except of course when multinationals seek to privatise their profits and socialise their debts, oh economic rationalism what a success story, about as successful as the Australian Colin's Class Submarines, Boring!!!!!!!!Patrick McMasternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-47659538660141735772011-07-06T07:34:45.799+10:002011-07-06T07:34:45.799+10:00Anon, yes they do, but they avoid (at least to a g...Anon, yes they do, but they avoid (at least to a great extent) the repetition of talking points that infects the ALP and LNPGreg Jerichohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04956402439870441083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-66611128960017273402011-07-05T23:55:08.445+10:002011-07-05T23:55:08.445+10:00You would probably get 16-17 year olds on $50,000 ...You would probably get 16-17 year olds on $50,000 a year as family businesses would exploit a loophole in the taxation system.<br /><br />I do think the greens use simplistic and targeted slogans like any other party.<br /><br />'Big polluters' 'Big miners to pay a bigger share' 'Green Energy' 'Hate Media' 'Make polluters Pay'. All this is a slow propoganda campaign to slowly engrain into peoples minds that they carry the moral debate on climate change, that they actually have a clue how to solve the issue and thus they also hold the best interests of the nations future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-3903851746876030882011-07-05T23:40:11.540+10:002011-07-05T23:40:11.540+10:00Yeah true re the dopey policies. Maybe that was a ...Yeah true re the dopey policies. Maybe that was a bit flippant. <br /><br />I guess my intrinsic position is that I like many of the Greens' expenditure proposals, but not their revenue measures. <br /><br />Raising the corporate tax rate to 33% for eg. I would have liked that when I was young and at uni, now I think it a bit foolish - one of those oh we can get the big end of town to pay for it all ideas that seems to be the Greens' standard response. <br /><br />Other things like: "abolish fees for educational services at public universities for Australian students and forgive HECS debts and FEE-HELP debt incurred at public universities". <br /><br />Sounds lovely, but actually I think HECS is a good way to do it. I would be more interested if they were to suggest changing the way HECS is repaid perhaps, but getting rid of it completely and going back to free uni education? I just don't think it is sustainable or good for the sector. I would prefer the money that that measure was going to cost be put towards the funding of the education sector. <br /><br />I also think, incidentally, the make up of the Greens' "shadow ministries" is dopey. You have Bob in charge of foreign affairs, but Ludlum overseeing Burma, SHY on Tibet, Di Natale on East Timor and West Papua.<br /><br />You have Lea Rhiannon on "democracy" Huh? And "animal welfare" Does that really need a spokesperson?<br /><br />Look I realise they only have 9 to cover the entire Ministries of the ALP and LNP, and the ALP and LNP have "parliamentary secretaries" that can read pretty dopey too, but it just comes across as a bit "University Student Association".<br /><br />And yeah, the ALP and LNP have many dopey policies as well. That is certainly true. And I agree with many things on the Greens side of things (mostly social areas). <br /><br />As I said, one day I might vote for the Greens, but I wish they had someone in their party who was a financial hard arse who you knew in their meetings was saying - Great idea but how in the hell are we going to pay for that? <br /><br />Maybe there is such a person already, but I couldn't nominate who that is - especially when Bob, their treasury spokesperson, occasionally likes to spend the proceeds of say the mining tax twice.Greg Jerichohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04956402439870441083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-23810493796196182092011-07-05T22:05:03.182+10:002011-07-05T22:05:03.182+10:00all Australian citizens over the age of 16 to be e...<i>all Australian citizens over the age of 16 to be eligible to vote... </i><br /><br />The most powerful argument I've seen in favour of lowering the voting age to 16 is that many 16, 17 year olds have jobs and pay income tax.<br /><br />So if we keep the voting age at 18 because kids aren't mature enough to vote any younger, then to be fair, the government should legislate that no person under 18 has to pay a cent of income tax. If they're emotionally/intellectually mature enough to pay income tax, they should have a say on how it is spent. <br /><br />Taxation without representation... didn't some folks have a revolution about that somewhere or something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-45293845329469067182011-07-05T18:07:22.488+10:002011-07-05T18:07:22.488+10:00Actually, all the parties have at least some dopey...Actually, all the parties have at least some dopey policies. Is there really any one out there who agreed with every policy of a single party at the last election federal election? <br /><br />At best one can only hope to agree with a majority of policies - or at look for a sensible policy or two about some major issue(s).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-3896366249887703432011-07-05T15:03:35.098+10:002011-07-05T15:03:35.098+10:00I think that people are right to bang on about Lee...I think that people are right to bang on about Lee Rhiannon and the possible danger that she poses to her party. But is this any different from the major party's NSW factions? Look at Labor's Sussex Street cronies who flex their muscles at every policy discussion. Remember the Liberal's David Clarke who has the power to play king-maker as long as his conservative Christian agenda is respected. <br />Full disclosure: I am not a member of the Greens but I have family members that are. It is my inside understanding that like the two major parties the NSW Greens are suffering from Sydney-centric view of NSW that forgets the rest of the state. It is more of a factor for the Greens because they're very inner-city-centric. <br />So maybe it's a symptom of the political game that is played in NSW in general, rather than Senator Rhiannon's personal agenda, that has the potential to be so volatile for a political party.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-72034674950815630372011-07-05T14:24:37.577+10:002011-07-05T14:24:37.577+10:00"Can you give some examples, and what's d..."Can you give some examples, and what's dopey about them?"<br /><br />Top of my list is:<br />>all Australian citizens over the age of 16 to be eligible to vote;<br /><br />I can't see how having the voting age at the lower end of the various legal ages of responsibility (driving, drinking, jury duty, etc) makes sense.<br />I personally would question the ability of the vast majority of 16 year olds to fully grasp the implications of the responsibility of voting (although, I'd make the same claim of a good proportion of 18 year olds).<br /><br />I'm generally a Greens voter, BTW.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-19250201709562155382011-07-05T14:00:48.869+10:002011-07-05T14:00:48.869+10:00I'm all in favour of a carbon tax, but OMG, th...I'm all in favour of a carbon tax, but OMG, this government has done the world's worst job in introducing it, With a complete absence of information they've left it up to Tony Abbott to explain it by default. No wonder they're doing badly in the polls, they're letting the opposition take the limelight. I desperately need to hear more about government policies actually happening, and less about what stupid thing Mr Abbott has said, but Julia needs to take control of the national agenda. Thank goodness Bob Brown has some policies, or this government wouldn't be doing ANYTHING.Friendlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05302241085168424095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-31226999460236867662011-07-05T13:05:09.023+10:002011-07-05T13:05:09.023+10:00"...challenging the potential mandate of a Co..."...challenging the potential mandate of a Coalition government..."<br /><br />Do you think the Herald Sun Editor might be getting ahead of himself?SimsonMcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-52488003370339528032011-07-05T12:45:56.955+10:002011-07-05T12:45:56.955+10:00I also wonder about the dopey policies thing.
Even...I also wonder about the dopey policies thing.<br />Even when people get all het up about 'inheritance tax! OMG!" really, I know very few people who would have to worry about being taxed on inheritances, not including the family home, farm or business, that are above $5m.<br /><br />Perhaps there are some dopey policies, but I have seen little evidence of it, especially when people use it as a throwaway line. I sometimes feel that people feel they HAVE to say that sort of thing in case people think they are being 'soft on the Greens' and therefore some kind of Nazi Watermelon, drinking heroin lattes. (Ok, ok, descent in hyperbolleeeee)<br /><br />Apart from that, fabulous post as usual!Rhiannonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-30448382277910716492011-07-05T11:31:31.535+10:002011-07-05T11:31:31.535+10:00The Greens have some dopey policies (in my opinion...<i>The Greens have some dopey policies (in my opinion)</i><br /><br /><b>Can you give some examples, and what's dopey about them?</b><br /><br />THIS.<br /><br />We keep seeing things about dopey this, or wacky that, but no-one ever provides an example.<br /><br />I recognise that this wasn't the purpose of this piece, but this throwaway line doesn't really add anything of value without at least one example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-76102232417649082742011-07-05T11:01:53.520+10:002011-07-05T11:01:53.520+10:00I'd be a natural Labor party voter ... but the...I'd be a natural Labor party voter ... but the ALP seems no longer to have any soul. The Greens do. So I vote Green 1st, Labor 2nd, and the Bonet Tabbott & The Totty-Wavers 3rd.NPThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02709384948801604808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-1030183224271068722011-07-05T10:55:48.724+10:002011-07-05T10:55:48.724+10:00"Anonymous said...
13% of the vote and 1..."Anonymous said...<br /><br /> 13% of the vote and 11% of the senate is OK on the surface but if it turns into effective control of the senate when deals are done with ALP who need them its not OK."<br /><br />They still have less power than the coalition. If the greens are asking something extortionist of the ALP in helping get a policy through, the liberals could always barter and ask for something smaller than the greens.<br /><br />Any way you cut it the Greens and the ALP make up the majority and if those two parties decide together to push something through then that is democracy working precisely as its meant to.Blakenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-25217637658730843552011-07-05T10:16:00.301+10:002011-07-05T10:16:00.301+10:00I think you are wrong about the lack of response i...I think you are wrong about the lack of response in the polls. The simple fact that she has stuck to some principle and followed it through will garner respect from the kind of people who have been switching off recently. We'll see...Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-73822286372388653992011-07-05T08:56:40.278+10:002011-07-05T08:56:40.278+10:0013% of the vote and 11% of the senate is OK on the...13% of the vote and 11% of the senate is OK on the surface but if it turns into effective control of the senate when deals are done with ALP who need them its not OK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8434369190746987531.post-60588241934233880852011-07-05T06:32:16.723+10:002011-07-05T06:32:16.723+10:00Ah yes - sigh - Mr Grog, now nice to see you haven...Ah yes - sigh - Mr Grog, now nice to see you haven't lost your touch during your recent and over-extended sabbatical. Is the book finished yet and can we now have more posts please? <br />A question: If I need a daily fix of Grog, does that make me an alcoholic?Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09894826694101357885noreply@blogger.com